"Anna, I'm Not Interesting"

[00:00:00] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Hey everyone and welcome back to the song saloon. I've missed y'all and I'm really excited to get back to releasing episodes. I have some ideas about how I'm going to change some things up in the future and I'm also open to ideas. So if you're wanting something different from this podcast or if you like how things are going, , just send me a message.

Let me know what you think. but yeah, some exciting stuff coming up today's episode. I meet with Jake Casman, a friend of mine I met at Durango, A year ago, I think now, in this episode, Jake talks a lot about his background as a dueling pianist player, and his time at Berklee college of music. We both came from the Boston area. I went to New England conservatory. So next door neighbors, this song and the EP is really focused on guitar. Driven music, which is a change for him because as I said, he was a dueling piano player.

The album is idling high and this song is out now So, please do check it out and then come back here and check out the episode when you're done All right on to the episode

[00:01:00] Jake Cassman: Hi, I'm Jake Cassman and this song is called Anna, I'm Not Interesting. All right, well, thank you. Appreciate it.

[00:04:19] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, that was awesome

I definitely heard Muppet bat that time and I was like, what's a Muppet bat? Um, . I was like, oh, Muppet bat. Of course,

[00:04:28] Jake Cassman: Yes.

[00:04:29] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Um, I just watched, my friend, Noah Sunday does these really great Disney medley things on TikTok and like, voice impressions. He just did one on the Muppets, so I think I just had it on the brain.

It's like

[00:04:40] Jake Cassman: I used to, uh, play a lot of St. Patrick's Day gigs and Whenever somebody requested Danny boy, I would always do the Muppet version just just to ruin it

I don't know if you've seen them do that.

[00:04:54] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah.

[00:04:54] Jake Cassman: that's an all timer. It's like Swedish chef and and yeah, Oh Danny boy. Oh Danny boy Yeah,

[00:05:05] Jordan Smith Reynolds: I would love to get into this song, and I'm not interesting. What, why did you write

[00:05:12] Jake Cassman: um Um I'm somebody who, uh, I think of myself as a romantic. I think of myself as an open hearted, loving, generous person. I certainly try and aspire to be that, but I'm also somebody who's had a lot of trouble progressing into relationships. Um, and I think a lot of that has to do with the freelance musician lifestyle I was living for a long, long time.

but a lot of it had to do with unaddressed, unaddressed. issues that I think I've really only been looking into and working on in therapy and in my own life, um, in the last few years. And, this song is kind of, Anna's not a real single person, but I think the song is kind of an exploration of all of the reasons I come up with to not.

Progress into a relationship and to end it before it starts and convince myself that I'm like Saving the other person pain and disappointment by telling them up front. Yeah, I'm not worth it I think there was at least one high school girlfriend who I explicitly had that conversation with I think I Don't think it's it's gotten to that point Explicitly as an adult, but, um, it's, it's definitely something I've struggled with for a long time and that's, that's what this song's about.

[00:06:31] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, there's a real like, you know, indie folk leaning, especially in the production and how you played on the acoustic guitar. What was that experience like for you? Because I know you've kind of been, jumping around genre wise. Do you want to talk about

why,

[00:06:47] Jake Cassman: and

instrument wise too. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm primarily a piano player. I've been playing piano since I was five. and then I studied voice in college. but, uh, I've always been a rock fan. Guy, you know, I, I was, I played piano, but I, I would literally break strings on our home upright piano.

Cause I was playing Green Day and Weezer songs, uh, and, and I would just bang on them. Um, and, uh, at some point I realized that like the, the guitar dialect was one I needed to speak in order to, uh, to write the songs I really wanted to. Uh, so I put out an EP. A couple of years ago, that was, that had no keyboards on it.

That was one of the rules that we, we had for it. Uh, we also recorded it to tape. So it was, that was a fun experiment. So I I've just, I've been trying to push myself more and more in that direction. And this is one of the first two songs I written, I've written finger picking. Um, so, you know, I, it, it definitely kind of starts from a, a black birdie in place, uh, but.

goes in its own direction and um, I, I find that Writing on the instrument that you don't know as well, it can be a lot easier. Uh, cause you're trying to find things and experiment. And, uh, as, as much as I love the piano, it, it does, it, it's how I've made my living for, you know, nearly 15 years. And, uh, not that I'm bored of it per se, but I do have a little bit of trouble, uh, breaking out of my own stylistic habits

[00:08:28] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, I think we just, as humans, we set patterns on things so quickly, you know? So, when you get really comfortable with an instrument, I can see how, um, when you start playing this chord, you're like, Oh, I know I like how this chord sounds right after. And so you get stuck in those boxes harmonically, um, melodically.

I know I write very different stuff when I jump

[00:08:50] Jake Cassman: for

sure.

[00:08:51] Jordan Smith Reynolds: um, which

[00:08:52] Jake Cassman: know, um, I know Brian Eno is a huge fan of like, we're going to play instruments. We don't know how to play while we're in the studio. That's something he does. And I, I can tell you, so I, I, my first job out of college was as a dueling piano player, uh, which I don't know if your audience is familiar with that format, but there's, there's two pianos on stage, there's a player at each, and they basically take requests from the audience for any song.

Any genre, any artist for like three or four hours a night. Um, and I was doing that a lot and there was one night I did a show and somebody requested black hole sun by sound garden, um, which is a gorgeous song. And. I start, and I, I, you know, I have a good enough ear that I could kind of pick out what that opening guitar riff was on the piano as I was singing it.

And as I played through it, I'm following along on a chart on the iPad to make sure I know the lyrics and all that. But as I'm playing through it, like by the end of the first verse, it occurs to me like this song could never have been written on piano. No piano player would ever have thought. To write a lick like this or a chord progression like this, this just, it's entirely a fret based thing.

And it was after that, that I realized like, okay, I, at some point, you know, I, all of the bands I listened to all the songwriters, I love are guitarists. Clearly there's a certain type of song and, uh, and hook and, uh, and just musicality that I can't get from just piano. So I got a, I got a. Buy my, my strat and, and go from there.

Yeah.

[00:10:29] Jordan Smith Reynolds: when you were doing this, dueling pianos, I'm curious about what that environment was like. If people are sending requests to you all the time, what percentage of songs would you say, like, you knew, and how often were you surprised and been like, uh, sorry, I don't have

[00:10:42] Jake Cassman: Um, well, so it depends on the night, right? So, uh, I, I went to college in Boston, got hired at the downtown Boston location for a club called Howl at the Moon. And on the weekends there would be, you know, it's a capacity, 300 capacity room, and there'd be a line out the door. Like it, it was a big happening place.

Um, uh,

[00:11:04] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah.

[00:11:05] Jake Cassman: And in those environments, you know, that there are certain songs that are going to get requested and songs that are going to work well with the audience. You know, you're going to play brown eyed girl. You know, you're going to play, don't stop believing, you know, you're going to play Bohemian Rhapsody.

Um, certain songs like that. And then there's also that whatever's on top 40 at that particular moment in time, that's going to come up. but then occasionally, uh, somebody wants to hear, Yeah, well, I should say those are the songs that frankly I got bored of very quickly, like I could go the rest of my life and never hear Don't Stop Believing again.

There's no disrespect to Journey. Journey has a lot of great songs, but I'm just over it. Um,

and, uh, but like, What you'd live for would be, uh, when somebody requested something that was a little off the beaten path. So one of the songs I learned while I was there was, uh, Feel Good Inc by Gorillaz. Um, and that still got a reaction and I could, you know, sing it, but I could also go ham on the rap and that wicked evil laugh that kind of was recurring throughout that

song.

And like, uh, I'd get up on the bar and rap Without Me by Eminem. And, um, yeah. It was, it was a blast. So it's, it's an absolute party in those environments. Um, and then on top of that, uh, the way Howl does it is that there's a full, they have a full band set up behind the pianos and there's five players. So every half hour, there's a full band set and you need to be able to rotate through instruments.

So I was actually learning how to play drums and bass. Kind of in front of 300 people a night on songs that I didn't necessarily know how to play.

Yeah. Uh, and you, you learn quickly in that environment turns out. Um, and by, I should say by play bass, it means I can play the fret that the piano player is playing on his left hand on the keyboard.

Like I, like, I'm not a good bassist, but I do know how to correspond and follow along. I'm an okay drummer. Um, but yeah, like you, you just learn to roll with the flow. Like I will, I will never have. stage fright again after, after that environment. Right. Like I've, I've been through it all. Um, but frankly, uh, you, you don't make as much money on the slower nights.

Um, but when it's like 20 people in there and you can actually have a conversation about who your favorite artists are and what they want to hear. Like there was one night, uh, my boss and I traded back and forth like seven Paul Simon songs and like Duncan and stuff like, like off the beaten track. You know, stuff like that or and then there's other night and and those are fun because yeah, you get to play great music but you don't have to worry about pleasing an entire room with 300 people and keeping the party going And then there were other nights on like a tuesday I remember there were literally two people in the bar and they were both watching the red socks game And so I played my first set Didn't get a request.

Come back up. My, my second set. Play my first song. I turn to them and I'm like, Okay, I'm getting the impression you guys don't care what, what I play tonight. Right? And they're like, Nope, not really. I'm like, cool. I'm going to see if I can play through all of American Idiot then.

Just to To see if I can and, uh, and those nights were fun too.

So it, it very much depended, but it was, it was a really great, I got a lot of stage time. I learned a lot of different songs and different styles of music and how to play different styles of music. it, it was a great first gig to have out of college. Between that and busking at Fani Hall in Boston, uh, I got, I got a real crash course in, in stagecraft and, and songwriting very quickly.

[00:14:43] Jordan Smith Reynolds: yeah, Funeral Hall always has a crowd around it. So

[00:14:46] Jake Cassman: Oh yeah. You can make some, some good money doing that. I used to put all my gear in one of those, take home shopping carts and take it on the subway

and, and get off downtown and, and wheel it over.

[00:14:59] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah. Very cool. so you had mentioned playing different instruments through that as well. how would you, would you share chord sheets with each other? So everyone was on the same thing or did you just have to kind of figure

[00:15:11] Jake Cassman: So, um, yeah, you mostly just had to, to figure it out. Um, the, whoever was singing and leading the song would look up the lyrics and chords on an iPad, uh, like ultimate guitar, one of those things, and everybody else just kind of figured it out. we, I was really lucky to work at the bar that I worked at because there were some real veterans there who were great on multiple instruments and knew literally thousands of songs.

Um, some of them didn't even need to know the song. Uh, ahead of time to play through it or they hadn't played it in 20 years, but like, uh, One guy could just go up and guitar I think was his second instrument but he could go in plug up the guitar and set the The tone to be exactly what it needed to be for that song because he remembered it and like Yeah, there were there were some real savants there But the other thing about that gig was, uh, it was mostly middle aged men.

I was 23 when I, when I started working there. And,

um, they knew all the country, all the classic rock stuff. And so they're like, Jake, you're gonna sing The Weeknd and Bruno Mars and Justin Timberlake for us. And I'm like, that's great. I'm a baritone. Um,

[00:16:22] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yep.

[00:16:23] Jake Cassman: um, and, and not only that, you're gonna sing it for three hours a night.

Um,

and so,

yeah. And so there's, and, and when, inevitably when you start doing that gig, like a month or two in, there's a week where you just completely lose your voice. And then after that it's like a muscle, it comes back and it's stronger than it's ever been. And uh, and the other thing is my voice went up a good two full steps while I worked there.

'cause I just got stronger and, and more confident and, yeah, better, better at

singing.

It's not even that high. You, well, the songs that came out when I was doing that gig was can't stop the feeling Justin Timberlake, which is a funky tune. I, I, I dig it, but it sits right at my break point and it's not, it's not even that high. It's just that it's right at the stress point in my vocal range.

And it exhausts me. It is. I love singing it, but I get, there's no song that makes me more tired than singing that one. Yeah. That's good right now for me that's uh, it depends on what key I do it in But if I if I do it in the original key shiver the the ed

[00:17:26] Jordan Smith Reynolds: sheeran Hmm. I don't remember if it's

[00:17:29] Jake Cassman: Yeah. He's got one of those

voices too.

[00:17:32] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, it just like sits on like a f or something. It just

is hanging out the whole I'm, uh, I'm obsessed with a guy named Sam Fender, uh, British artist. Uh, and yeah, same thing, tenor, lovely, lovely voice. Uh, but I, I don't naturally sing that high. Yeah, it's so bizarre though, because like that song, like it doesn't go very

high. It's just there, you know, like halfway high. Um, and then, um, The fun song we are young was requested and I like made it through which was weird because I had just like struggled so hard on this it's yeah it's funny it's just where it sits in the voice and because the fun song it's just like goes in the stratosphere but it like

doesn't stay there Yeah. Well, you know, we, we would do, uh, some rehearsals every two weeks or so at this bar. So one of the things we practiced was the harmonies on some nights. By fun. Um, and we had like some really talented musicians. So one of our players was a classically trained flutist. So she and my boss would do the dueling solos on, uh, uh, Africa by Toto.

oh yeah, no, we, one of my favorite musical memories ever. I was sitting in the bar and they opened, so they had the location in Boston and then they opened one in Foxboro near where the Patriots play. And we would meet at the Boston location and commute in one car out to Foxboro. And so I'm waiting for the car to leave.

[00:18:58] Jake Cassman: And my, uh, two of the older vets just start playing, uh, I don't know if you're familiar with the track for play slash long time by the band Boston. Um, it's on the same record as more than a feeling. Um, and long story short, it's like this seven minute Prague rock. Intro slash pop song at the end. Uh, and they just started playing it, the two of them, but I knew it too.

And so I got up on stage just in time to, to, uh, Play bass and do backup vocals on, on long time, the second half of it. And the drummer was a trainee who'd never heard the song before, but we played the entire thing together. Um, and it was an absolute blast because it was just one of those spontaneous moments that you could never get in any other environment that like three people would know how to play that song.

And the fourth would just be game enough to kind of follow along. Yeah, Yeah, it was so

much fun. Yeah. Um, did you have to put up a sign for, like, no free bird? Or

[00:19:59] Jordan Smith Reynolds: is that just, Um, I mean, we, we, we played it a couple of times, uh, and I, yeah. Um, not, not all three guitar solos at the same

[00:20:09] Jake Cassman: time, but you know, well, it's not like, um, they're yelling at us too. They write down on pieces of paper and hand them

up.

[00:20:16] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Oh, that's

[00:20:17] Jake Cassman: Yeah, so you can kind

of keep So you get, you get less of yeah, well, and it's, it's, and as I remind people, I, I still do those gigs occasionally.

It's like, it's, it's capitalism. If you, if you literally, if, if you're playing a song, uh, for 20 bucks and somebody doesn't like it and they request something for 21, you stop playing that song and you move on to the next one. And, uh, and you can turn it into a game that way too. Um, yeah. So yeah, you, you kind of keep track of it that way.

But yeah, usually if somebody yells free bird at me, I call for security. That's my, my Yep, that's the go to. And it's funny because I was, I just did a live gig. I like it. It was like a country club kind of Oh yeah. And someone asked me to play free bird and I laughed at them Because I assumed was a a joke and like they looked like hurt

they got to know that's a cliche.

[00:21:05] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Who asked for free bird sincerely? I do want to know what the

[00:21:08] Jake Cassman: origin of

that was. Like, when did that become a pre internet meme that that's the thing you do? You

know, Uh huh. giving so many live performers grief since,

[00:21:20] Jordan Smith Reynolds: since so long, for

[00:21:21] Jake Cassman: Well, I mean, and Piano Man's the other one that's traumatic for us, right? But At

[00:21:25] Jordan Smith Reynolds: certainly.

[00:21:26] Jake Cassman: the duelers, for sure.

[00:21:27] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Well, I love hearing about your background in that. You said you went to college for

voice as

[00:21:31] Jake Cassman: Yeah, I went to Berklee College of Music. Um, and I ended up creating my own major as kind of a combination between songwriting and music business. Um, but voice was my principal instrument there. Mainly, I auditioned on piano and voice. And then, uh, I took piano lessons from when I was five to 12, uh, but then was kind of self taught after that point, mostly relying on, on my ears.

Uh, and I just, I didn't want to do the sight reading that was going to be required of the piano players. So I was like, I'll be a vocalist. Um, yeah, that was, that was basically the. The decision making process. I'm glad I did that. I, I could definitely serve to do some more piano lessons now. Um, but I, I definitely grew as a vocalist between doing those lessons and, and dueling pianos for sure.

[00:22:20] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Mm hmm. Great. Um, and so bringing it back to this song, I'd love to know how that you're just all, um, going through all those experiences, uh, dueling pianos, uh, Berklee. How does that lead you to writing this song? What, what do you think

was that path for

[00:22:38] Jake Cassman: Well, I, I do think I got tired of the piano. I think that's an important aspect of it. And, um, yeah, it just burnout from when pianos you're living. And, uh, you know, I, I have a little bit of arthritis from, in my left hand, from just playing octaves as hard as I can all the time. Um, yeah, so like, uh, I, I, it definitely drove me to, Um, I should also say, you know, I, I started a band called Drunken Logic, uh, when I was at Berklee and carried on for basically the next decade, put out three albums and two EPs under that name.

Um, and at times it was a band, at times it was my solo project. I definitely felt like I didn't realize until after this record was done, that it was going to be a Jake Castman record and not a drunken logic record. But I think I was, I was consciously trying to reinvent myself and what my music could be when I went into the studio this time, we actually took 16 songs into the studio and recorded them over six months last year.

and so we were kind of discovering the record as it went. And that was really freeing. And this, this song was always a little bit of an odd duck in a lovely way. Um, you know, I, I am very much an indie rock guy, but I, I do pride myself on, I, I love folk music. I love folk rock. I love folk songwriting and, and even my rock songs, I really do kind of think of as like folk songwriting in terms of the storytelling and character building.

I, I want that to be a part of everything that I do. Um. But a song like this, with the finger picking, with the, what started out as a very simple analog drum beat, um, was the kind of song that I've heard Jason Isbell write tons of times, Margot Price, uh, I've been listening to a lot of that kind of new Americana country stuff as well.

Um, and so that was definitely in, in the space area in my mind as we were doing this, but a lot of these songs also kind of drew on more contemporary, um, production techniques and sounds. And so, what started out as. Something that I think could easily have been a pretty straight country folk rock treatment, uh, got, uh, deliciously weird as time went along.

Um, and so like there's 808s playing that drum beat now and there's, uh, I just whistled through the solo for you, but there's actually two pedal steel solos playing at the same time in the, in the recorded version of the song and since. And yeah, it's, it's just a weird. Um, I, I recorded it with, uh, Mitch VanBrie, who's somebody I've known since college and, uh, Mike Post, who runs Moose Cat Recording out of his guest house here in LA.

And, um, this was always kind of the, the in studio favorite of the bunch.

[00:25:47] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Uh

[00:25:48] Jake Cassman: And so I was like, okay, yeah, this will be kind of an album favorite b side track. And then the more and more I started playing it for people, they were like, no, that's the song, guys, like, put that out. I'm like, okay, that's, that's relating to people.

And I'm glad it is because it's, I think it's also one of the most vulnerable songs I've ever written from an emotional standpoint.

[00:26:08] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah. It's funny how that usually

coincides.

[00:26:11] Jake Cassman: And, and that tends to make it a little. You're a little bit more reticent to kind of put that out there first or make that the the thing that people want to Learn first about your band. You don't think it's that's just a yeah, you don't think it should necessarily be the first representation of what you're doing artistically right and But then you play it for people and they're like, oh my god, I love that

[00:26:36] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Mm

[00:26:36] Jake Cassman: So

yeah, that's that's definitely seems to be what happening what's happening with this

[00:26:41] Jordan Smith Reynolds: That's so exciting to I love that process of kind of figuring out songs um and playing live is another big one for that right too because you you bring songs live and some really resonate and some don't and uh, and yeah just helps we don't like Just whittle things down to

what you need

[00:27:00] Jake Cassman: well the, yeah, the last line of the song is literally, I can't ask to be loved. Right? And so the, I think I debuted it, uh, the first time I ever played it live was at the, the LA Writers Round at the, at the old location at the, what's now the Oaks, Hollywood.

[00:27:18] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Pre

[00:27:19] Jake Cassman: Yes, Pre

Ivanhoe. Um, and literally the guy who was next in line, uh, afterwards just kind of looked, looked at me like this heartbroken look, and he's like, you, you can ask to be loved.

It's okay. You know, like, but like, I, I kinda, you know, that was kind of the first indication that like, yeah, people are gonna, you know, I, I think they're kind of shocked that somebody saying something that. openly and, and vulnerably, but I think they also relate to it and have felt that way before.

[00:27:51] Jordan Smith Reynolds: I also think it's, um, fun how you've added all these different production pieces to it, that feel very in contrast with, like, saying something's not interesting. Like, I'm not interesting, and then there's all these, like, cool little instruments, uh, interesting

elements to your

[00:28:07] Jake Cassman: Yeah. It's a

very, yeah, it's a very interesting track to kind of incongruously. Like we really went for a snare sound in the later parts of it. That's very much inspired by, uh, that sound from the boxer by Simon and Garfunkel. Not quite that massive. I always read somewhere that they just like slapped a huge.

Metal chain on the cement floor, and that's how they got that sound.

[00:28:32] Jordan Smith Reynolds: I will tell you what it is because I just listened to, uh, um, there's like this Malcolm Gladwell, uh, Paul Simon

[00:28:38] Jake Cassman: Oh, okay.

[00:28:39] Jordan Smith Reynolds: it was, yeah, it was like a mini audio book. It was like, well, I guess not many. It was like five or six hours, but, um, one of the things they talked about was the boxer and, uh, they took, yeah, I think he said chains.

Um, I think it was chains that they had like this open elevator shaft and just like dropped it.

[00:28:59] Jake Cassman: That's amazing

[00:29:01] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, I guess there was like Someone working that day near the elevator shaft and like they didn't know that they were there and he like scared

of really bad

[00:29:09] Jake Cassman: Oh god, that's so funny.

[00:29:12] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah

[00:29:13] Jake Cassman: That's such a massive

Sound that you get out of that. It's so

yeah classic

[00:29:19] Jordan Smith Reynolds: It's so cool It's something that's so hard to replicate

because how many like open elevator shafts do you have around to

record?

[00:29:27] Jake Cassman: What's it? Uh?

[00:29:29] Jordan Smith Reynolds: like that in

[00:29:30] Jake Cassman: When the levee breaks, Led Zeppelin, they're, the drum sets at the bottom of a spiral staircase.

[00:29:36] Jordan Smith Reynolds: I don't

know that one

[00:29:37] Jake Cassman: I think that's, I think that's what they do on that. Yeah, just what they did in the 70s when they didn't have to just click two buttons on their computer to get that kind of effect, right?

[00:29:46] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Uh huh. Yeah, I love that. That's so cool. Um, so you have so you're saying you had some of the drum things that were uh,

like a tribute to

[00:29:56] Jake Cassman: Yeah, I, I, I insisted on getting, uh, you know, I, I'm not confident enough to be a drummer on my own. music yet, um, because I've only really ever played live. I'm, I'm not to a metronome. I'm not note perfect on an analog kit or anything like that. Howl at the Moon's kits were always electric. So you could, you'd sound like a rock god no matter what you did on, on those things.

Um, but I did insist on getting a drums and percussion credit. So that sound is me hitting a snare drum once and then us digitally reproducing it.

So I got it. I got it. I'm on I'm on I'm in the line of notes. But yeah, that's that's how we did that.

[00:30:35] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yes, get those royalties.

[00:30:38] Jake Cassman: More points for me.

[00:30:40] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yes, that's awesome. Um, so tell me what's coming up next for you. You, you have a large body of work you've been putting together. I'd love to hear kind of your release

strategy

[00:30:52] Jake Cassman: Yeah. Um, so this new album is gonna be called Idling High.

And like I said, we went into the studio with 16 songs. And we're gonna release 13 of them. Uh, but we're doing it in a slightly unorthodox way. So Idling High is an album, and the album's gonna have 10 songs. Uh, but nine of those are split up amongst three different eps and one of them's very on the folky side, which is where Anna's coming from.

And the next three songs will come from one's, uh, got a little bit more energy and, and backbeat to it. And then there's one that's much more a, a straight rock. Uh, but basically there's gonna be three, four song EPs that each have three songs from the album and one song that's not on the album on it, and we're gonna release them all, song by song, over the next year and a half.

So, Idling High, as a complete record, won't be on streaming until Sometime late next year, um, but through my website and through my kickstarter, you'll be able to get a complete digital copy of the album Um, and we're also hoping to press some vinyl copies of the album and so you can if you want the whole thing you can you can buy it But if you if you're just streaming it, you're gonna have to wait a long time

[00:32:13] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Right. Awesome. And we'll have links to all that in our show notes. So if the Kickstarter is up,

it will be there. It'll be on the, yeah. So do check out the show notes there to, to see that and see what songs are coming up and to follow everything. Jake Casman. Uh, what's the best place to find you? Is

it Instagram

[00:32:34] Jake Cassman: Yeah!

At JakeKasmanMusic on Instagram and TikTok, uh, JakeKasman. com, spelled J A K E, Cassman, C, ass, man, middle school was tough for me, um, and, uh, yeah, and, you know, uh, I'm putting stuff up on YouTube and, uh, other platforms as well.

[00:32:59] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Awesome. Um, thanks so much. I want to talk a little bit more about, your lyric writing and, and writing in general for, for songwriters before we go. I just listening to this song, I loved all the different images, you know, needle and ink starting with, with things like that really helped to kind of set.

The scene and the mood that you're in for me I felt like I really felt the heart of the song kind of come when you have this You've known my pain since you binged season four Um, I don't know why that line hits as as hard as it does Um, but i'd love to hear just kind of like where that fell in your writing process like that line in particular i'm just always curious about structure how how a song's kind of come out Is it verse

or chorus and all

[00:33:42] Jake Cassman: Yeah, you know, this is a song that I know, I mean, the guitar part came first and then it was very much a matter of writing lyrics to fit whatever melody I could come up with that fit with the guitar part. And, um, yeah, but I, I did end up writing it very linearly, which is not always the case. Sometimes I'm usually starting with a chorus or even a bridge or something like that.

So, um, I love that line too. and and I love A new Americana and, and country stuff that still feels very contemporary, right? Like, I, I think there's a lot of country in Americana that's incredibly nostalgic and backward looking, and I'm, and especially lyrically, right? It's celebrating this old version of America or old version of.

What the quote unquote country is the heartlands American values, et cetera. Um, and this, this is, you know, I always envisioned this album as kind of a reinterpretation of the echo in the canyon stuff, the LA folk rock stuff, but in 2024. And, um, so I wanted to ground it in that. Uh, but that line in particular.

Yeah. I mean, I, I definitely wanted it to kind of Relate to the streaming age, but I think it's also this idea of like, yeah, you can tell I'm I'm vulnerable. I'm in pain I have my own stuff that I'm working through but I'm also You know a straight cis hetero white man and It's not like there haven't been enough TV shows made about the stuff.

I went through as a kid You know, I, I feel like, uh, not as you know, it, it, like, it's, this song is self deprecating to a point of, of almost paralysis and in, in, in romance. But it's also this idea of not only am I in pain and that's a reason why you shouldn't connect with me, but also my pain is not that interesting.

My pain is not that unique. It's, it's the usual, you know, yeah, early thirties white boy crap. Um, and, you know, like, and, uh, Yeah, so I, I think, I think there's, there's something to that, that even everything about me is, is a cliche, even the reasons why you should probably go find somebody else.

[00:36:05] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Wow, yeah,

[00:36:06] Jake Cassman: Yeah, that's that's dark and, and, and it

is, uh, saying it out loud is, is, is dark, but I, I do think there's something to that, right? I mean, and, and it's a new way of saying like, yeah, you, you read this in a book or you know, this, this, none of this is new, um, but it is kind of putting it in a, in a new light.

And. The post next, post Netflix world, I guess.

[00:36:30] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Mm hmm. Yeah, in a, like, in a world that's so saturated with content, um, it makes, it makes, Yeah, it makes everything feel less interesting in a way too. So that's, I imagine that that plays

into that a

[00:36:45] Jake Cassman: Oh, yeah. Well, it's like, uh, what's the line in Fight Club, when Tyler Durden's like, we are waking up to the fact that we are not all just the unique little special snowflakes, you know? It is, it is, there is a little bit of that in there, too, for sure.

[00:37:00] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, for sure. That's

[00:37:02] Jake Cassman: Yeah.

[00:37:03] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on here and joining the show today. do you have any thoughts for creatives out there Any, maybe tips on, where you go to find inspiration for your creativity or, uh, anything about the craft writing process that you just want to

touch on before we

[00:37:22] Jake Cassman: Oh, man. Um, well, I'll tell you, so I, I just had, uh, I'm a school teacher by day, uh, and I just had, uh, An old mentor of mine, a really incredible artist manager, and he's a professor at Berklee and he's just kind of a sage of the music industry. His name's Ralph Jackadine. He came and spoke via Zoom to, uh, my high school students today.

And what he said, and this isn't necessarily songwriting specific, but it's, it's kind of life specific. He's, he said two things. He said, be foolish and fearless. And try and add value to any situation. And it was a really inspiring talk. And I, I'm somebody who's constantly, uh, I am inherently a perfectionist and that can be a real roadblock at times because Yeah, especially to putting out new like the idea that people want to see unfinished work on social media is an idea that I Really struggle with because like I don't want to see my unfinished work.

Why why would anybody else right? um But i'm also somebody who discovered improv comedy and played piano for improv comedy shows for a long long time and the joy of You Not being precious about your ideas and having faith that you're going to have more. Um, Is, is really, really fun. And so I, I'm in a, uh, a co writing group with the soft spot crew right now.

Um, which is really, really helpful. Cause I don't know about you, but when I'm getting ready to release something or after I've just finished mastering something like I, my creative juices completely dry up usually like

I, yeah.

I, I get so I'm just, my ears are so tired. That I don't, I don't want anything to do with that anymore, you know,

[00:39:13] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah.

[00:39:13] Jake Cassman: um, so I, I joined this group specifically in that and also because I tend to write on my own and, and so yeah, just try and make, I think it's best to find new ways to make yourself uncomfortable and, and push yourself beyond what you, your, your normal habits.

You have to keep finding ways to not be calcified in your own. In, in what's comfort, comfortable for you.

[00:39:40] Jordan Smith Reynolds: love that kind of pairing of foolish and, and

[00:39:43] Jake Cassman: Yeah.

[00:39:44] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Uh, Yeah, that's,

that's a good way to look at

[00:39:47] Jake Cassman: Yeah. And you know, the other thing he said was in terms of adding value to situations, like just don't, you know, when you're so many, there's so many social climbers and, and thirsty people, when you go to the hotel cafe or any other event in LA, like they're trying to meet the person and trying to get something out of any interaction.

And even if they're not, they, they might come across that way. And if you just show up with good intentions and prove. That, hey, yeah, I can, I can go coffee for the person who just, you know, drove 50 miles to be here for this gig, or you, you know, you can do the favor and do the nice thing for, for people and show that you're, you're there for good reasons and that you can prove yourself useful.

That, that does come back around if you maintain that. I would like to think that, uh, karma is a thing. I'm not a real spiritualist in any sort of meaningful way, but I do find that if you, if you are open hearted and, you know, not, you know, Not, not trying to be overly, overtly transactional, um, things, things come back around to you.

[00:40:58] Jordan Smith Reynolds: For sure. Well, yeah, I think that's a great place to, to close up. That's solid advice for, for songwriters listening in. Thank you so much again for being here. I love, love chatting about this song and it's great to see Yeah, you're just approaching music in a different way. I've followed your music for a while Um since we met at Durango and yeah, just really exciting to

see what you've been up

[00:41:22] Jake Cassman: and you too, Mandy, you know, I, when we met at Durango, you were

[00:41:29] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah